Shani Jayamanne: Welcome to Investing Compass. Before we begin, a quick note that the information contained in this podcast is general in nature. It does not take into consideration your personal situation, circumstances or needs. 

Mark Lamonica: Well, Shani, we got an amazing email from Paul. And we'll get to the question in a bit, which of course is the basis for this episode, or we wouldn't be talking about it. But Paul included a bunch of other stuff in his email. So, he made fun of the way I pronounce your name, which I think is correct. But anyway, that's just me. He told me that I should be proud that someone called me (indiscernible), which is obviously related to my accent again, and he sent us a picture of a burger, probably because we keep talking about burgers. Now, I want to spend a minute talking about the burger that Paul sent.

Jayamanne: Yeah, and just before this episode started, Will asked what we're going to talk about, and we said burgers, and he is like, you talk about burgers every single episode.

Lamonica: Yeah, and honestly, now I'm hungry.

Jayamanne: Yeah.

Lamonica: All right. So, let's talk about this burger. Now, Shani, I'm going to put you on the spot here and I'm going to ask you to speak for the entire country of Australia. And I'm obviously a citizen now and I love living here, but there are some things that I still don't accept and one of them is kind of the average burger you get in Australia. And Paul called the burger that he took a picture of a proper burger with the lot. And he is right. There's lots of stuff on it. So, it appears from the picture – obviously, I was not there, but I spent a lot of time looking at it – so, it appears to have cheese, tomato, lettuce, pineapple, bacon and beetroot and then a lot of sauce. And somewhere buried in all of this is beef. So, Shani, my question for you is, why do Australians love burgers where the main ingredient, the beef, play such a small role?

Jayamanne: Yeah. I mean, my favorite part of this is, I actually wasn't in the office when Mark was looking at this email and basically looking at this picture of the burger to figure out what was on it. So, he asked our colleague Emily what was on it, because he thought that the beetroot was truffle, like just a huge piece of truffle.

Lamonica: Does that make me an idiot or a snob? Or both?

Jayamanne: A little bit of both, to be honest.

Lamonica: Okay.

Jayamanne: But look, I don't know if I have the average Australian's philosophy on burgers. I think I much prefer like an American style burger. That's simple, but I will say that I think the beef or meat is very important. And I say meat because I really like fried chicken burgers, too.

Lamonica: We're aware of your love of fried chicken, Shani.

Jayamanne: But when you combine it with bread, like, it just makes it better, you know, bread and sauce. But yeah, it's very closely followed by the sauce. So, the source makes or breaks the burger, I think, and I think the ratios are very important. Too much bun to me is awful. Too much meat to bun is not great. So, yeah. So, this can mask all manner of sins though when the burger isn't quite there.

Lamonica: Okay. I mean, I think, we're basically on the same page here. I'd probably deemphasized the sauce a little bit, but basically on the same page. And we obviously both love the Gidley Burger, and we're going to go to Au Cheval when we're in Chicago, which is an amazing burger.

Jayamanne: All right. I'm excited.

Lamonica: Okay, Shani, that's a lot of burger talk. I'm now hungry. So, why don't we get to Paul's email, the question in there that we're going to base this episode on.

Jayamanne: All right. So, Paul says following. One thing I'm wrestling with at the moment is why both your podcast and another I listen to are quite negative towards property investment, while other investors I know are absolutely sold on it. No pun intended. Maybe a question you could address on a future episode is, under what circumstances would you consider property a good investment?

Lamonica: So, Shani, apparently, I – we have given people the impression that we don't think property investing is a good idea.

Jayamanne: I think this is probably a lesson to be more positive about things, Mark, but I do understand where they're coming from. We do talk about it quite a bit.

Lamonica: Yeah. Okay. So, maybe it is a lesson. But Paul, you may be surprised to hear that I actually own some investment properties myself. So, today, we're going to go through some of the considerations that we think you should consider when evaluating an investment property.

Jayamanne: And we'll both share our own thoughts and experiences around housing. But more important than our opinion is, of course, what each of you are trying to achieve with this investment and your overall goals.

Lamonica: And we're going to cover a lot today. But one thing I want to state with conviction at the beginning of this podcast is that neither of us care what happened in the past with property. So, there are a lot of listeners in Australia who have probably made a fortune in real estate given the price appreciation. And you know, good for all of you. But that of course is the past. So, what we're trying to speak to now is new investors that are looking at property now, because if you've learned anything on this podcast, it's that chasing returns does not work. So, we need to evaluate a property investment today and try to come up with an informed opinion about future prospects.

Jayamanne: All right. So, let's get this started, and we're going to start with ourselves. And once again, this is not because you should do what we do, but because we think we want to be transparent about how we think. So, I can get started with my situation, and I think like all goals, financial and otherwise, it's shaped by personal experience.

So, I grew up in the western suburbs of Sydney, in a suburb called Quakers Hill, which for listeners outside of Sydney is about 40 kilometers from the CBD. When I was at the University of Sydney in the city and when I travelled to work in the CBD when I was living with my parents in Quakers Hill, I very quickly realized that something that was important to me was living close to work and living close to restaurants and bars and nice walks and parks and you know, lifestyle was just really important to me and I just wasn't getting that when I was travelling 90 minutes door-to-door each way. And I don't think there's anything wrong with travelling that distance if it's something that doesn't bother you or location isn't a priority. But I wanted to live close to work and be able to enjoy my life before and after work, which I don't really get to do without travel time. And so, I live very close to work now and that's something that brings me a lot of joy.

Lamonica: Yeah. And Shani lives so close to work that sometimes when I'm going on a rant during a podcast, she actually goes home, so she doesn't have to listen to it, and she can come back by the time it's her turn to reply to the rant.

Jayamanne: Yeah. But well, I have been living close to work. It has, of course, meant that a larger percentage of my pay is dedicated to my rent. And I completely understand that some people will be listening to this and say that to afford a house I need to make sacrifices. But I guess there's a few points I'd like to make here about my mentality regarding a property as a residence and property investing. And the first is that I have to separate property as an investment and property as a residence. So, we'll discuss this in the podcast, but looking at property as an investment, I think that residential property as it stands is overvalued, especially around Sydney. And if I were to purchase a property as an investment, I just don't have enough capital to afford that mortgage and also diversify into other asset classes. All my money would be in residential property, and it would be in one residential property, which I don't really feel comfortable with at all. But in saying this, I've invested in property through listed vehicles. So, I do have exposure to property as an asset class. And this also means that I don't have to deal with large lump sum costs like repairs and maintenance, (indiscernible) directly.

And then, separately, if I talk about property as a residence, as much as I would love to put nails in the walls and hang up pictures, owning a property is not one of my main financial goals. I want to be able to build enough of a capital base for passive income to travel and to support family members. But in saying all of this, owning a home is one of my husband's financial goals and I appreciate the reasons why he wants to own a home and I respect that is something that he wants to achieve. So, we've had discussions about what works for both of us. And I won't go into too much detail about this, because this isn't what this podcast is about, but I think it's understanding the reasons behind purchasing property.

So, if we purchase property, we need to ensure that we're not sacrificing our lifestyle in any meaningful way, meaning a large mortgage or adding a large commute back into our lives, that we have very clear criteria behind property purchase, both for an investment property and a place of residence, much like the IPS' that we've discussed before. And as it stands, we don't see any properties in the market meeting those stipulations. So, that's me, Mark. What about you?

Lamonica: Yeah. Well, surprisingly or unsurprisingly, that was very thoughtful, Shani. People have not picked that up on Shani thinks a lot about is very thoughtful about decisions she makes.

Jayamanne: That's very nice, Mark.

Lamonica: Well, I'm a nice guy. But anyway – all right. So, I guess, if we turn to me, I – and this is probably what comes across in the podcast that maybe Paul is reacting to. But yeah, I feel no emotional attachment to property. So, I've never thought that owning a home was an important life stage, and I've never cared if anyone thought less of me for not owning a home. And I know that isn't the case for a lot of people. But what matters to me is where I live. So, pretty similar to Shani, like, I want to walk to work. Now, it takes me like 35 minutes to walk to work, but I still want to walk to work, and I want a neighborhood like Shani that's filled with bars and restaurants and close to public transportation because I don't want to own a car. And I also want as much of my income to be available for discretionary spending as possible. So, I'm currently a renter in an inner-city suburb of Sydney called Surry Hills and I pay approximately 7% of my combined household income on rent, and I don't really see a scenario where I would buy a place in the near term given the prices in the inner-city suburbs, and while it'd be nice to have a nicer apartment with some more space, I really have no motivation to pay more and move.

Jayamanne: Well, that's quite the summary there, Mark. But since we are talking about investment properties, why don't we focus on your decision-making process there?

Lamonica: Okay. So, I do own multiple investment properties in the U.S. But before getting into them, I want to talk about my investment approach because it's of course linked to Shani was talking about. So, my goal for my non-retirement accounts is to generate income. So, I'm primarily interested in cash flow. And I talked about this in multiple episodes, including your favorite, Shani, where we talked about if we are cash flow statements or balance sheets – she is rolling her eyes at me – so, what I care about is cash flow and generating as much as possible. It's the same reason that I want a lot of discretionary spending. I want to pay for experiences, to travel, to go out to eat, things like that. So, while I certainly wouldn't be upset if the properties I own appreciated in value, my primary motivation for purchasing them was the ability to generate cash flow.

Jayamanne: So, let's talk about cash flow. There are obviously two things that matter here – what is your monthly cost for carrying the properties and what is the income that comes in? So, how did this inform what you chose to do?

Lamonica: Well, there are two different factors that I considered here. The first, of course was the set monthly cost. So, that is the mortgage that I'm paying. And I know this is going to be controversial to a lot of Australians that are listening, but it's really important to me that the mortgage costs were fixed over the life of the loan. Since I bought these properties in the U.S., that was of course easy to do since the standard is a 30-year fixed rate mortgage, which is what all of mine are. So, on all these properties I will know what I'm paying every month for the life of the loan. And then, there's other fixed costs associated as well. So, there's an insurance component and property taxes in the U.S., and those, of course, may increase, but at least most of that cost is fixed.

Jayamanne: So, how should we think about that in an environment like Australia, where the fixed portion of your mortgage is shorter term?

Lamonica: Yeah. Well, honestly, I think you just need to model out different scenarios. And I think a lot of people are probably doing that right now just based on what's been happening with interest rates. So, interest rates are still historically low even with those recent RBA increases. And I've been called conservative, of course, but to me, I would have to assume if I got a mortgage in the last few years and intended to hold the property over the long term, that I would be paying more at some point. If I was investing for capital appreciation, I would think about what impact rising interest rates would have on property prices, and the direction is generally down when rates are going up. If I was investing for cash flow, I would think about my ability to pass on those higher costs in higher rents.

Jayamanne: So, basically, if you had a merit and could maintain margins.

Lamonica: Yeah, a little bit. So, over the course of time, of course, rent should naturally increase with inflation or perhaps higher than inflation depending on where you are. But yeah, just something to think about.

Jayamanne: All right. So, what about the rent side of things?

Lamonica: Okay. Well, I bought these properties, and they were already rented out. So, I was pretty confident that the rent levels represented market pricing. As I said, I was also confident that hopefully rents would increase over time and that had a lot to do with the communities I picked out. So, I tried to be thoughtful about where I bought this property. So, increasing rent is very much a product of local economic conditions. So, I bought properties that were very close to large universities because I figured that they would maintain the local economy in all economic conditions. And also, I bought a property in a town that had a large and growing Mercedes plant in Alabama. So, I thought that this offered some protection. So, the local community is an important factor for both people that want to generate income and those that want capital appreciation.

Jayamanne: All right. So, we need to talk about purchase price now and how you decided what a fair price to pay was.

Lamonica: Yeah. So, this is where I looked at cash flow again. So, I knew the cost side of things. I knew the rent side of things. And I put it in an estimate for nonstandard costs, which we'll get into in a bit. So, I wanted a cash flow yield of 10% annually on my property.

Jayamanne: So, that means if you put down 10K, you would want to generate 1K annually when you looked at the difference between your rent you received, and the cost associated with carrying the property?

Lamonica: Exactly. And for those of you in Australia, I need to be clear on a couple of things. Property and prices in the U.S. are cheap on a relative sense to Australia, and especially when you get outside of major coastal cities and their suburbs. And that of course is where I went to purchase these properties because they had very attractive cash flow yields and I could buy multiple properties for diversification.

Jayamanne: And this is an important consideration, especially when you're considering an investment property in Australia where prices are higher. It's harder to build a diversified property portfolio because you need a lot more money. The inherent issue with purchasing a property is that things can and will go wrong. One thing that can go wrong is that you could have no tenant, and another is that there are a ton of repairs that are necessary. Also, you could just pick a bad place to buy the property. As Mark pointed out, he was careful about where he purchased the property. But still, there could be long standing economic decay that leads to stagnant rents or even falling rents.

Lamonica: Yeah, and this stuff does happen. So, cities fall into and out of favor. And if you were buying in more regional areas, all sorts of stuff can happen. So, people stretching for investment property often go and buy wherever they can, and that can exasperate these problems. So, if you buy in the wrong location, even within a town or city that's doing well, you could be faced with declining rents and declining housing prices.

Lamonica: The one other thing that I would add about the non-location things that could go wrong is something that I've experienced. So, I own one property that has pretty much been a disaster from day one. So, I had someone who stopped paying rent. I had to hire a lawyer to process an eviction. Then it turned out that he didn't vacate the property and my terrible property management company didn't figure this out. So, even though there was no electricity, he still lived there, and I had to get the sheriff to show up and forcibly evict him. And you can imagine the state of the place when he left. So, I did pay to get all that cleaned up and repaired, and the places had long periods of vacancy, a tree fell on it, and the last tenant actually put the iron on the floor and burned an iron-shaped hole in the carpet.

Jayamanne: You showed me that photo of the carpet. It was pretty funny.

Lamonica: It was pretty funny.

Jayamanne: So, all of these issues that Mark has confronted could be described as property-specific risk as opposed to something that is an overall systemic risk, which is something like rising interest rates. When we build a portfolio, we diversify away company-specific risk by owning multiple holdings and keeping systemic or market risk because taking on that risk is what generates returns for us. And that is the issue with not being able to diversify away those property-specific risks with housing investments because they're so expensive.

Lamonica: Yeah, exactly. And so, my original plan was to try to buy 10 properties over the years because I thought that was the number that would diversify away the risk of major repairs being required, a terrible tenant or a vacant unit. So, even if one unit was vacant or maybe more than one, or a major repair was needed, I figured I would still be cash flow positive, which of course was my investment goal. But I never got to 10 properties because housing prices in the U.S. took off, which meant the cash flow yield on the properties wasn't attractive. So, I just stopped buying them. Now, my properties also appreciated, and in some cases, significantly, but once again, that wasn't my goal. I want cash flow and now I'm a bit stuck.

Jayamanne: So, if you had to go back and do it again, would you do it, Mark?

Lamonica: Yeah, I'm honestly not sure. So, I've made decent returns from a price appreciation perspective, but this problem unit has sucked in a lot of cash flow that I've generated from the other properties.

The other thing I would say is that my original plan was that as I generated more cash flow, I would start directing it to pay off one specific property because getting one place to a mortgage free situation would of course again boost my cash flow. So, if I was paying $1,000 a month to that mortgage and it went away all of a sudden, my cash flow of course would go up by $1,000 a month.

Jayamanne: The other strategy there would be, of course, to use that extra money to keep acquiring properties.

Lamonica: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think the thing with me is that I'm just not that comfortable with debt, which is a huge part of property investing.

Jayamanne: I completely agree. It's the leverage which makes property investing such a great investment when prices are going up. For instance, if I bought a $100,000 house and put 20K down and prices increased by 10%, my house would be $110,000. So, even their prices went up by 10%, I've made 50% on my original investment of 20K. That is the power of leverage. Just be careful, because if housing prices go down, the same thing happens. If the house went down by 10%, my loss would now be 50%.

Lamonica: And we need to be clear here that leverage increases the risk of any investment. You get higher upside and higher downside. So, over time, as you pay down your mortgage, you're actually removing that leverage which mathematically lowers the upside of your house, and I think that's underappreciated.

So, let's use a quick example. So, let's say that you've been paying off your house for years and you now have $50,000 in equity, and the house is still worth $100,000. You get that same 10% price appreciation to $110,000. Your return on the initial money you put in and the equity you've paid off is now 20% instead of 50%.

Jayamanne: And this is why many people continue to take equity out of investment properties and reinvest them into other properties. So, have you considered that at all?

Lamonica: Yeah, I mean, I personally haven't just once again with that sort of uncomfortableness with debt. So, borrowing and investing money works really, really well until of course, it doesn't.

Jayamanne: So, one thing that people do with investment properties is to take out interest only mortgages that will minimize your payment, which will increase your cash flows. So, the downside of course is that you aren't building up any equity. So, what do you think about that, Mark?

Lamonica: Yeah, I mean, I actually think it's a pretty – given my goal, so I think it's a pretty attractive option. And I certainly don't think that that's a horrible thing if you're also looking for price appreciation. You just better be right about the direction that the market is going because you have more risk since you've never built up any of that equity. I'd also just go in with your eyes open. So, personally, I'm pretty conservative. So, I probably wouldn't do that. But that's of course just me and my goals.

Jayamanne: So, the repayment of principal is one of the things that you hear all the time about housing and primarily if it is your primary residence.

Lamonica: Yeah, right. So, the renting is throwing away money out…

Jayamanne: Yeah, and we talk about this all the time. Renting is paying money for something, and it's paying money for something that is pretty essential, which is shelter. So, yes, you aren't building equity when you rent, but you aren't building equity when you buy new clothes or go on a trip or go out to dinner. In every case, it would be better for your financial well-being if you just save that money instead of spending it.

Lamonica: Yeah. No, exactly. Exactly. All right. So, let's switch gears away from our opinions and try to take an objective look at housing in Australia right now and how that relates to the investment opportunities out there. So, we've seen this year the direction of interest rates will clearly impact housing prices, but of course affordability will also play a factor. And interestingly enough, we've already seen investors "buying the dip in housing" according to the AFR.

Jayamanne: And the paper side of this buying at the dip was driven by increases of gross yields. Gross yield is dividing the annual income from the property by its sale price. And the AFR cited rental rates increasing faster than housing prices, and gross yields nationally were 3.9%, and that means on a $1 million property you would generate $39,000 in rental income. So, what do you think about that?

Lamonica: Yeah, I mean, to me, that seems shockingly low. It's obviously a very different measure than what I was looking at. So, instead of just looking at rental income, I was looking at cash flow, so after all the expenses came out. If I looked at the first property I purchased, the gross yield was close to 12%. It was 11.91%. So, safe to say that it's very difficult to purchase a property in Australia for cash flow right now and that's of course my goal, but only my goal. So, 3.9% just isn't going to cover all the costs associated with the property, the mortgage, costs like strata, maintenance and insurance, just to name a few.

Jayamanne: However, the one big difference between the U.S. and Australia is negative gearing. Now, negative gearing kicks in when the cost of owning a rental property outweighs the income it generates each year. A taxable loss is created which can be used to offset other income generated, including your salary. So, basically, what this means is that a property is automatically cash flow neutral. How does that change the equation for investing in property?

Lamonica: Yeah. I mean, negative gearing is certainly an interesting one. So, I'll stay away from general comments about the tax policy. But in essence what this is doing is, it's inflating property prices to the point where it's really difficult to buy a new investment property that is cash flow positive. But of course, it doesn't really matter, right, because you get negative gearing. So, in a practical sense, it means that property investing in Australia is all about price appreciation because most investors now would have to wait years and years until they generated positive cash flow on their properties from those rising rents.

Jayamanne: And if price appreciation is the name of the game, we should take a look at where housing prices may go from here.

Lamonica: Okay. So, Shani, we started this thing off by saying that we don't believe anyone should chase performance and just invest because housing has done well in the past. So, let's dig into that right now. So, prices have gone up significantly and that of course has implications just as investing in the share market, that is, at a historically high valuation level has an impact on the returns you'll get going forward.

Jayamanne: All right. So, let's turn to the 2022 Demographia International Housing Affordability report. The report looked at 92 major markets across the world and compared costs versus income ratios on housing. Well, the report found that Sydney is a second least affordable housing market in the world behind Hong Kong. In fact, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide, Brisbane and Perth are in the top 20 least affordable markets in the world.

Lamonica: And the report looked at the median multiple of housing prices relative to income. So, Sydney clocked in at 15.3 times, Melbourne 12.1 times, Adelaide 8 times, and Perth 7.1 times.

Jayamanne: So, let's look back on the last decade to see how we got here. In Sydney, housing prices have rose 146% in the decade up to October 2021. Wages have grown in Australia around 28% during the same timeframe.

Lamonica: Yeah. So, obviously, housing has gotten more expensive.

Jayamanne: Yes, it has.

Lamonica: So, let's say the next decade is the same as the last one, so same growth in wages and same growth in housing prices. So, if wages grow 28% and housing prices grow 146%, like we see in Sydney, then in Sydney, in a decade the median housing price will be more than 29 times wages.

Jayamanne: So, the average salary in Sydney right now is $78,000. If that grows 28%, it would be $99,000. Let's make the assumption you live in a two-person household with that salary, which of course is the exception and not the rule, well, that means that you make $200,000 as in household, and your house costs 29 times wages, it would be worth $5.8 million. So, what do you think of that?

Lamonica: Yeah. I just don't think that's happening. So, let's look at this from a practical standpoint. To buy a $5.8 million house while putting 20% down means you have a $1.16 million down payment, plus, of course, the other costs associated with buying a property. So, that is 5.8 times your salary, just that down payment. You have to save 5.8 times your salary. So, let's say, you've managed to save that. On a 3.4% interest rate, you would have a monthly mortgage payment of $23,000 a month, which incidentally is $267,000 a year, which of course is more than your annual household pre-tax salary.

Jayamanne: So, yeah, it's not happening. So, the question, of course, is what is going to happen with housing prices. We've seen some recent drops, pretty minor drops all things considered. But with interest rate increases, we could see further drops and many people are predicting price falls of up to 20% in some capital cities.

Lamonica: Yeah. And affordability is certainly going to play a role. And the lack of affordability is driving big changes in home ownership rates across different generations in Australia. And this is where we need to take a step back. 2021 census in Australia showed that by a slim margin, millennials are now the biggest generation, and millennial homeownership rates are well below where previous generations were at similar ages.

Jayamanne: For example, if we look at people born between 1982 and 1986, only 41% owned a home when they were between 25 and 29. Their parents, who were born between 1952 and 1956 had a home ownership rate of 53% when they were similar ages. At the age of 30 to 34, those born between 1982 and 1986 hit 50% home ownership rate. It was 68% for that 1952 and 1956 crowd.

Lamonica: Now, clearly, affordability is influencing these generational shifts. So, let's look at some other drivers of housing prices going forward. There's obviously supply and demand. Now, demand is driven by population growth, and Australia, that means net migration. There could also be government policy influences. But I think after the 2019 election it's probably more likely than not that the government will not implement a policy that lowers housing prices, like taking away negative gearing, for example. But I would say the biggest influence will be interest rates.

Jayamanne: Rates going up should bring housing prices down and we've already seen that, which is where the near-term predictions on these drops are coming from. The risk, of course, with rising rates is that influence that they have on current homeowners. Could prices go into a spiral downward if a meaningful amount of homeowners are forced to sell or default on their mortgage is certainly a risk, even if it is a remote one.

Lamonica: The question is where the rates go longer term. And while there is a lot of speculation about what will happen, I think we have to be honest that rates were at historic lows in the last few years and that makes it more than likely they will settle into a spot where they are higher. At the very least, I think it's more likely than not that housing will not get the same sugar hit it did over the last decade when the RBA cash rate went from over 4% to 0.10%.

Jayamanne: I think at the end of the day, it's difficult to come up with a scenario where house prices appreciate at the same level that they have over the past decade. So, like everything else, it's important to go into any investment with realistic expectations. Think about the level of mortgage rates and level of rent that would make your investment property cash flow positive. And when that would occur in the future, think about how this investment would hold up compared to alternatives if price appreciation is a lot lower than it has been in the past.

Lamonica: Okay. So, we did an episode on property investing.

Jayamanne: We did. We've been avoiding it.

Lamonica: I know. So, I think Paul is happy. I think -- what do you think everyone else – may be happy we covered the topic, maybe not happy with what we said.

Jayamanne: Who knows? If you have thoughts, email us. Yeah.

Lamonica: Yeah, let us know. Yeah, let us know. What do you think the general reaction is going to be, Shani?

Jayamanne: Happy we covered it, may be.

Lamonica: May be. Upset that we did not put on our cheerleader outfits and say housing is going to continue going to the moon.

Jayamanne: Yeah.

Lamonica: We'll see. We'll see. Anyway, thank you for listening to our property investing podcast episode. As always, you can send any comments you have to my email address, which is in the notes. We'd love ratings, comments, sharing this with your friends and family and also come to our conference.

Jayamanne: I'll put the link.

Lamonica: So, we'll put a link in there. We would love to meet you in Sydney October 13th.